Jesus - to be or not to be, that is the question!
March 26, 2007
In Brian Fleming’s documentary “The God Who Wasn’t There,” he makes the case that Jesus never existed. In the Discovery Channel’s documentary, “The Lost Tomb of Jesus,” the claim is made that the tomb of Jesus and his family members was discovered. Which is true? Did Jesus exist? If he did exist, did he say or do the things claimed in the New Testament?
A few years ago when I first raised this question, a close friend of mine gave me this response:
The credible eyewitness reports regarding Jesus’ life, ministry, and message are numerous and irrefutably authentic. Even atheistic historians agree on that historical fact. To deny that fact is tantamount to insisting that the world is flat or that Hitler didn’t really kill millions of Jews.Of course that fact alone doesn’t mean Jesus really is who he said he is. But the fact that this is his message is irrefutable, unless of course one willfully chooses to ignore the evidence. But to do so would only serve to reveal that one is an obstinate fool. You can argue that the message is wrong, but not that this isn’t His message.
So that brings us back to C.S. Lewis’ comments. Either Jesus is who he said he is (i.e. God, the way, truth, and life, and the only way to the Father) or else he is a deluded crazy; or worse yet, a charlatan, deceiver, and fraud. You can’t classify him as something some where in between.
First of all, the first full-length account of Jesus’ life is probably the Gospel of Mark, which most scholars believe was written sometime after the year 70. This is almost 40 years after the alleged death of Christ. There are also many legitimate questions concerning who actually authored the gospels. It should also be noted that two of the four gospel authors, Mark and Luke, never even claimed to be eyewitnesses of the events they wrote about.
Secondly, there are no Roman records that show Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. In fact, there are no contemporary or official records pertaining to Jesus, someone who supposedly had a great impact on both Jews and Romans. All documents that exist were written well after the time of his life and death.
References to the “atheistic historians” mentioned are also of suspect. All of these historians, including Josephus, were born after the death of Christ. In fact, the Jewish copies of the works of Josephus do not contain the two references to Jesus. Which text is accurate? Even at that, Josephus’ Antiquities was written around 93.
The reality is, we have no hard evidence to the life of Christ. We cannot cite the accuracy of references to historical events or places in the gospels as evidence of its authenticity. Homer’s Odyssey references many historical events and places, but we do not say that this is credible evidence that the events in the Odyssey actually took place.
In addition, there are discrepancies to the timeline of some of the historical facts mentioned in the Gospels and questions about the existence of some of the places referenced in the Gospels during the time period the books are set. Also, conspiracies about the life of Christ abound, including his alleged marriage to Mary Magdalene, popularized in Dan Brown’s novel The Da Vinci Code. How can we prove or disprove any of these events or conspiracies?
So, did Jesus say and do everything the New Testament claims? That answer is intellectually obvious. However, can we further question whether or not he was even a real historical figure?
- Roopster
Entry Filed under: Roopster. Tags: agnostic, atheism, Bible, christianity, faith, freethinking, religion, skepticism, spirituality.
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1.
Spiritual Monkey | March 26, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I’ve seen Brian Flemming’s film and had a hard time sitting through it all. Should we assert that Jesus never lived, we would still have to account for the source of the oral traditions that were eventually written down. Honest textual criticism, especially utilizing the two-source theory of Mark and Q, is itself an argument for the life of Jesus the Nazarene.
Brian Flemming has a bone to pick with Christianity, thats fine, I understand it, but he is hardly a credible scholar of Christianity, Biblical literature, or history.
Of course there isn’t going to be any “hard evidence” for someone who lived 2000 years ago in a completely illiterate society. Sure, there is always the possibility that such a person never existed, but the non-existence of Jesus altogether is more problematic than if he did exist. I suppose I would take the works of Bart Ehrman and Robert Funk over a pissed off Hollywood director (no offence Brian).
2.
gracemark | March 26, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I’m encouraged to see that you are still searching. Its obvious that the issue of Christ’s existence weighs heavy on your life. I pray that your breakthrough to the voice ringing in your head, His voice, comes sooner rather than later.
3.
agnosticatheist | March 26, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Spiritual Monkey,
Here’s an interesting exchange between Flemming and Christianity Today:
- Debunking Jesus? - 6/7/05
4.
Spiritual Monkey | March 26, 2007 at 11:07 pm
That’s a good quote, thanks. My comments were based entirely on viewing the film and reading his blog. Like I said, I didn’t mean to disrespect Brian Flemming, I resonate a lot with where he is coming from.
If is film and public commentaries are ways of raising awareness and forcing people to ask questions, all power to him. But for those of us, and I think I am speaking about people like you and me, who are very aware of the problems of the historical Jesus, we should concentrate on what scholarship is the most plausible.
I feel that sometimes sensationalist films like Brian Flemming’s and the whole Jesus Tomb thing and the Da Vinci Code only hamper the plausible truth that many academics are trying to find. When I start talking to evangelical Chrstians about my studies I get this “oh, so your one of those Da Vinci enthuiast-types” attitude.
The truth of the matter is that there was a guy named Jesus who we don’t know a lot about and not many (if any) credible religious scholars seriously doubt the existence of Jesus the man. Jesus the Christ, on the other hand, even without his divinity, is definitely debatable. I think that is where Brian Flemming succeeds - destroying the idea of Paul’s manufactured myth of Christ.
5.
agnosticatheist | March 27, 2007 at 3:36 am
It’s been a couple years since the release of his dvd and this article. I’m sure all the “Christian love” he’s experienced since then has warmed his soul and made him more accepting of Christians.
My recent exposure to Flemming is the whole “Blasphemy Challenge” thing. I have to say I’m not a big supporter of that whole idea. I understand and agree with the premise. However, since it targets kids who may really not be truly free of their religious upbringing, it could be a source of great regret for some of them. Religious indoctrination is not something to take lightly. Sometimes it takes years to deconvert.
BTW, check out Michael Turton’s commentary on The Gospel of Mark ( http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark_intro.html ) and his blog ( http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com ). He hasn’t been as focused on his N.T. studies of late but there’s some great study material there if you’re interested. I should mention that he’s an atheist.
aA
6.
Mike | March 27, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Ironically, there is an excellent chart online by a Jewish apologist which highlight the inconsistencies and discrepancies of the resurrection accounts. This is the Url:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/crucifix.html
My question about all this is simple: Why don’t people see the glaring and irreconciliable differences in the chronology of the accounts? You’d think it would be obvious to any slightly intelligent person (and I’m not trying to patronize anyone here). It is deeply ironic to me, that after 8 years of being an evangelical Christian the one thing that showed me my faith was faulty was researching the resurrection, the single most important event in Christianity. Once thoroughly studied the origin of the accounts can be reduced to oral tradition, which undermines the doctrines of inerrancy and inspiration. You’d think that if God wanted one thing perfectly clear and accounted for it would be the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but lo and behold it is not. Therefore, I have resigned to existentialism.
7.
agnosticatheist | March 27, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Mike,
Isn’t it amazing that one event has so many issues. That’s only the beginning. If you read the books on how to resolved the “alledged” discrepancies of the Bible, it’s volumes. Why would the omniscient creator of the universe write a book that is riddled with contradictions? I parroted the “no contradiction” line as a Christian but wow, if you open your eyes there are too numerous to count.
Why did they not cross reference these books against each other and get the story straight? Why didn’t the early church fathers, who made other additions, make the edits? It all just doesn’t make sense.
My bigger issues, however, were not factual contradictions it’s more on the conceptual issues. How could God be a loving, compassionate Father in heaven and commit all the atrocities he’s “credited” with committing in the Bible? And that’s only the beginning.
aA
8.
Euthyphro | November 29, 2007 at 1:17 am
This is definitely a valid question, but I must say that I do not consider conspiracy theory to be relevant. Conspiracy theories abound even in regards to clear historical events. It doesn’t help to get hung up on conspiracy theories, as if they present genuine alternatives among which no decision can be made.
9.
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